Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

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Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Sat May 03, 2014 11:42 pm

I'm considering either using my white Lincoln for F Stock or my blue Lincoln for STX and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for shocks, struts, brake pads, tires, etc...

I'm leaning toward G-Force Rivals but nothing is set in stone.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby oldschool1 » Sun May 11, 2014 1:26 am

"What Is AutoCross?"

Image

Around 2005 - 2007, one of the Club's founders, Nick "ND4SPDLSC" did just that.

It's an awesome experience. The answer to your question is about as varied as the Mark VII itself.

The faster you can maneuver, the more lateral stability you'll need.
The more lateral stability you need, then the lower your center of gravity needs to be.
The lower center of gravity ...

This should be an interesting thread :)
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Sun May 11, 2014 7:52 am

Thanks for the link.
I've autocrossed before but that was back in '03 and '04 in my Impreza.
I'll have to sift through the info in the link, lately I've been wondering about running a Solo2 event with the air suspension shut off to both artificially achieve a lower center of gravity and prevent the suspension trying to adapt to uneven loads, i.e. a long sweeper.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby mark007 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:22 pm

HotRod Power Tour 2009
Armond in his 90 LSC
I wish I had pics of Glen's, and Bill's car too, but thats all I could find. All three guys placed in the autocross event. Placing high and beating some nice machinery too.

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1990 Lincoln Mark VII w/ a few knick knacks
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby mark007 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:35 pm

I forget this members name. He used to frequent here, and fordvschevy in 08-09. supercharged VII

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdJgHFOnNGw
1990 Lincoln Mark VII w/ a few knick knacks
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby ND4SPDLSC » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:34 pm

I have used my '86 LSC. You'll be in a tough fight. Just look to have fun. You're a few hundred pounds overweight compared to an already heavy Mustang. You also have an automatic without a second gear lockout. Look at the class rules and if you can, get the widest, stickiest tires you can and the widest rims. The stock size tire has too big of a sidewall and it rolls over too easily. Even 245/50/16s are too big on the sidewall. You really need something like a 275/40/17 but that may bump you out of the stock class. Bump the air pressure up on the front by maybe 10 psi compared to the rear but bump everything up over the recommended pressure (staying within the pressure limits of the tire). You'll want the 1 5/16" Turbo Coupe/Cougar XR7 front anti-roll bar from the '87-'88 chassis and the Addco 415 7/8" rear bar. The Addco bar is actually undersized and you still get a lot of understeer. We probably need a 1" rear bar. If you can, you want the Koni dampers and GTC front springs. The LSC springs and regular dampers are still too soft for hard driving and the car wallows. Any negative camber you can get from crash bolts would help you for the front end.

The air suspension automatically shuts off above 10 MPH or so. It's not an active suspension able to compensate at speed. From LSCman's info (he won a regional in the mid '90s with his '88 LSC), the car is best at the stock height.

The rear end also moves around a lot and don't be surprised if you see rub marks on the tail pipes. It's a good excuse to get your bushings in order. I'd swap the rack bushings for poly but the rest can stay rubber.

Don't feel too bad though. Even my tuned 540i/6 has it tough against smaller and lighter cars. The courses are too tight. We're better off on a longer road course.

Good luck and it'll be fun!
1985 Continental, Burgundy - In CT, Free to a good home!
1986 Mark VII LSC, Medium Graphite Metallic (1J), Project #1
1986 Mark VII LSC, Silver Metallic, Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #, Unfortunate Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #2, Project #2
1994 Mazda Miata, Classic Red
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:08 pm

Thanks for the info!

For the time being I was planning to stay in a stock class and just have fun stretching my car's legs a bit.

I'm dead set on a 1 3/8" FSB but have been debating the addco 7/8" rear bar vs their 1 1/8" rear bar but I'm a bit worried that the 1 1/8" bar may be overkill and make it too tail happy. That would be further down the road though, since upgrading both bars would bump me into STX and at that point I would be looking into subframe connectors, caster/camber plates, panhard bar, etc...
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:27 pm

I have a thread on another forum that lays out my plans for the car and what I've done to it so far.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 290/page1/
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby floodking88 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:07 pm

i've read through your post, and i don't have an account there but if i can give my opinion: rebuild and upgrade your aod at the same time. silverfox, another LSC owner with an AOD business, sells rebuild kits and all the nice new electronic parts, and the bigger OD band. that, a shift kit, and a converter, and it will shift amazingly.

this is relevant to autocrossing as well. probably.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:13 pm

I've been trying to isolate and eliminate a clunk from the passenger side front since I took possession of the car. Today i once again had it up on jack stands, prying and tugging on various things when I decided to deflate the r.f. air spring and see if maybe a completely unloaded suspension corner would reveal this recalcitrant clunk. I guess I've been so busy with other things that I never noticed I have soft ride air springs. I didn't even know that was an option on LSC's.
I posted a pic on my GRM thread.
I guess I'll add LSC or GTC (If I can find them) air springs to the list of eventual mods!


Regarding the clunk; the passenger side A-arm bushings did seem to move more and with less effort than the driver side. Definitely due for some bushings!
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby CDW6212R » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:52 pm

Good finds, both of them.

BTW, for the GTC springs, find the thread about them in the other Lincoln Forum. Armond mentioned it when we met, the information you need to construct your own adapters is there. You can use the LSC air springs to make a GTC unit, by adding the custom adapter.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby ND4SPDLSC » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:10 pm

I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.
1985 Continental, Burgundy - In CT, Free to a good home!
1986 Mark VII LSC, Medium Graphite Metallic (1J), Project #1
1986 Mark VII LSC, Silver Metallic, Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #, Unfortunate Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #2, Project #2
1994 Mazda Miata, Classic Red
1999 Dodge Viper ACR, Viper Silver Metallic
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby CDW6212R » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:59 pm

ND4SPDLSC wrote:I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.



Interesting, and is it the chassis that's weak or the mounting brackets? I noticed that the Mark VII mounting brackets look really close to the SN95 brackets. I saw them when I was hunting for the OEM blue urethane links in 1998, to use the Turbo Coupe bar. I got them from a 96ish model, and then saw them again on my 94 GT.

Does the brace kit from MM help with the brackets, or the chassis?
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby floodking88 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:35 pm

MM does sell a frame kit, and also a a bracket relocation kit, but it doesn't go down as far. it moves the normal short bracket forward. i wish they had one that moves it down as far as ours. i already broke one! :x i also use spacers for it now, since the geometry is better when it's like, a quarter inch down.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:03 am

ND4SPDLSC wrote:I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.



Thanks for the info! Feel free to add anything else that pops into your head!

Right now my A-arm bushings are the priority and I'm debating making my own, I am a machinist afterall. I have 6061 aluminum readily available even though I'm actually leaning toward an 863 or 954 bronze. Any material other than rubber would boot me out of stock so I'm also playing with the idea of forward offset.


Alleged 1 1/8" rear bar Addco part #504:
http://www.andysautosport.com/lincoln/1 ... 00260.html



The classification concerns are mostly due to my conscience and sense of fair play. I know I lack the driving skill and platform ability to hit an autocross and dominate any class let alone stock, but if I were to finish mid pack in stock class with non-stock parts I would feel like a cheating turd.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby CDW6212R » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:32 pm

The_Jed wrote:
ND4SPDLSC wrote:I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.



Thanks for the info! Feel free to add anything else that pops into your head!

Right now my A-arm bushings are the priority and I'm debating making my own, I am a machinist afterall. I have 6061 aluminum readily available even though I'm actually leaning toward an 863 or 954 bronze. Any material other than rubber would boot me out of stock so I'm also playing with the idea of forward offset.


Alleged 1 1/8" rear bar Addco part #504:
http://www.andysautosport.com/lincoln/1 ... 00260.html



The classification concerns are mostly due to my conscience and sense of fair play. I know I lack the driving skill and platform ability to hit an autocross and dominate any class let alone stock, but if I were to finish mid pack in stock class with non-stock parts I would feel like a cheating turd.



FYI, the police Crown Vics in the mid 80's had aluminum upper control arm bushings. I had an 85 and and 85, they had a "screw appearance" machined outer surface, I only saw the set that came out of one of mine, and they were very worn.

Also, Addco will most likely make a sway bar in a size not listed in their catalog. I have a 1.25" bar for my 73 Ranchero, and back then they only made a 1" bar(stock biggest was 1.125").

The best sway bars needed changes for each different suspension upgrade you make, beyond the track and driver etc. So don;t get tied into one magic set of sizes, your car could end up needing softer bars then everyone else.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:09 am

I took the boring/easy route and ordered some Moog O.E. style replacement bushings.
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby ND4SPDLSC » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:18 am

CDW6212R wrote:
ND4SPDLSC wrote:I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.



Interesting, and is it the chassis that's weak or the mounting brackets? I noticed that the Mark VII mounting brackets look really close to the SN95 brackets. I saw them when I was hunting for the OEM blue urethane links in 1998, to use the Turbo Coupe bar. I got them from a 96ish model, and then saw them again on my 94 GT.

Does the brace kit from MM help with the brackets, or the chassis?


It braces the chassis by adding a truss to box the cantilevered flat to the front frame rails.
1985 Continental, Burgundy - In CT, Free to a good home!
1986 Mark VII LSC, Medium Graphite Metallic (1J), Project #1
1986 Mark VII LSC, Silver Metallic, Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #, Unfortunate Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #2, Project #2
1994 Mazda Miata, Classic Red
1999 Dodge Viper ACR, Viper Silver Metallic
1999 Jaguar XJR, Black, Stock
2000 BMW 540i/A, Biarritz Blue
2001 BMW 540i/6, Jet Black, Dinan Sprinkles
2001 BMW M5, Anthracite Metallic, Stock
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby ND4SPDLSC » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:19 am

The_Jed wrote:
ND4SPDLSC wrote:I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.



Thanks for the info! Feel free to add anything else that pops into your head!

Right now my A-arm bushings are the priority and I'm debating making my own, I am a machinist afterall. I have 6061 aluminum readily available even though I'm actually leaning toward an 863 or 954 bronze. Any material other than rubber would boot me out of stock so I'm also playing with the idea of forward offset.


Alleged 1 1/8" rear bar Addco part #504:
http://www.andysautosport.com/lincoln/1 ... 00260.html



The classification concerns are mostly due to my conscience and sense of fair play. I know I lack the driving skill and platform ability to hit an autocross and dominate any class let alone stock, but if I were to finish mid pack in stock class with non-stock parts I would feel like a cheating turd.



Ferraris run rubber bushings. Solid and often times polyurethane bushings are often a waste on anything but a true race vehicle. Even then, bushing material selection is considered on a case by case basis.
1985 Continental, Burgundy - In CT, Free to a good home!
1986 Mark VII LSC, Medium Graphite Metallic (1J), Project #1
1986 Mark VII LSC, Silver Metallic, Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #, Unfortunate Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #2, Project #2
1994 Mazda Miata, Classic Red
1999 Dodge Viper ACR, Viper Silver Metallic
1999 Jaguar XJR, Black, Stock
2000 BMW 540i/A, Biarritz Blue
2001 BMW 540i/6, Jet Black, Dinan Sprinkles
2001 BMW M5, Anthracite Metallic, Stock
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby ND4SPDLSC » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:27 am

The_Jed wrote:
ND4SPDLSC wrote:I forgot to mention that the Fox platform has notoriously weak front anti-roll bar mounts. I tore my driver side bracket off auto crossing. Mustang guys do it far more frequently. Maximum Motorsport sells a brace kit for Fox Mustangs that can be used if desired.

I am not aware of a rear bar larger than 7/8" for the car. Please check that it is not for the Mark VI or the front bar.

Also, for the most part, unless you are winning, no one cares too much about classification.



Thanks for the info! Feel free to add anything else that pops into your head!

Right now my A-arm bushings are the priority and I'm debating making my own, I am a machinist afterall. I have 6061 aluminum readily available even though I'm actually leaning toward an 863 or 954 bronze. Any material other than rubber would boot me out of stock so I'm also playing with the idea of forward offset.


Alleged 1 1/8" rear bar Addco part #504:
http://www.andysautosport.com/lincoln/1 ... 00260.html



The classification concerns are mostly due to my conscience and sense of fair play. I know I lack the driving skill and platform ability to hit an autocross and dominate any class let alone stock, but if I were to finish mid pack in stock class with non-stock parts I would feel like a cheating turd.


Considering what you're running at 3800 lbs with ~215hp (the 5.0 was slightly over rated), I don't think it will matter as a decent final position with even the best driver would be a long shot, but I understand your position. But it's really for fun anyways.

The bar is for the front. If you want a larger rear bar, which you really need, they would be willing to make it. We just need around $5k seed money plus 5-8 years inflation.
1985 Continental, Burgundy - In CT, Free to a good home!
1986 Mark VII LSC, Medium Graphite Metallic (1J), Project #1
1986 Mark VII LSC, Silver Metallic, Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #, Unfortunate Parts Car, Gone
1989 Mark VII LSC, Pewter Metallic (17) #2, Project #2
1994 Mazda Miata, Classic Red
1999 Dodge Viper ACR, Viper Silver Metallic
1999 Jaguar XJR, Black, Stock
2000 BMW 540i/A, Biarritz Blue
2001 BMW 540i/6, Jet Black, Dinan Sprinkles
2001 BMW M5, Anthracite Metallic, Stock
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby ropntex » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:06 pm

You do not need a turbo..... Just practice. These cars are heavy, so they have a disadvantage. I street race mine every weekend in Shreveport. Straight,and auto cross. Minor improvements are needed. I spent less than 500.00 on mine and 2 hours and I drive mine every day. I win and lose. I have fun. Turbo...., a waste of money. I have 226,349 miles on my 1991 lsc and still kicking ass. Drive for fun, fun to drive.!
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby Floyd » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:39 am

I have a Conti that I autocross the heck out of! Still got the stock 140hp engine too!

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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:06 am

Nice!

Are there any more pics of it or a build thread anywhere?
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby Floyd » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:16 am

I really should do a build thread. Ive done alot to it, but the stock engine remains. Running decent times in a heavy underpowered car requires a different technique. Alot of the turns you get into would be best served going into fast, then hard on the brakes, then power out of it..... if you have a powerful engine. Think of that as making a V shape. I hafta make more of a Half V, half U shape so I dont lose momentum. Im not even close to the fastest cars, but the i seem to pick up at the tail end of the mid pack cars. Ive had drivers with fast cars try mine and they cant believe the times I can get out of it. So if youns have a chance to Autocross, I say do it! I really have one of the worst power to weight ratios ever, and I have a blast!
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Re: Does anyone use their Mark for Autocross?

Postby The_Jed » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:04 am

I just snagged a 1 5/16" front swaybar for mine and finally sorted an electrical drain that was pushing me over the edge. Baby steps closer to being prepped for H-Street.

I agree whole-heartedly about under-powered cars being well suited, and in my opinion better suited than more powerful cars, to Autocross. My theory is it's easier to drive a slow car at 10/10 and wring every last bit of performance out of it than to tiptoe around the course in an overpowered, fire breathing monster. My engine will remain stock for the foreseeable future.

That's what I tell myself anyway... :mrgreen:
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